Sunday, July 20, 2008

JC Skinner Is Angry

JC Skinner's been getting my knickers in a twist today. This post jolted me out of my slump and up onto my high horse this morning, and played on my mind throughout the afternoon. It's rare that I put my ranty commenter hat on, but I've pulled it on with vigour this evening and hammered the shite out of the keyboard in an effort to express my displeasure. Have a gawk yourselves, I'd be interested to see how others react to what he's proposed.

24 comments:

Thriftcriminal said...

Me? I liked the Indian solution a few years back, give a chap a transistor radio in exchange for having a vasectomy. Of course it'd have to be updated now, give them an iPod maybe, call it the iSnip? I'm less interested in individual cases than overall global population control though. As Bill Hicks said "Lets take a moment out of our rutting to work out the whole food-air deal, huh?"

Felix for Zosia said...

Wow. I was going to comment on the blog in question but I would only be repeating what other people said. I was totally horrified. And his idea of a 'compromise' involving women having LESS say over what happens to their own bodies than they do in the current situation??? Crazy talk! ALthough maybe the whole 'forced to carry baby to term against their will' thing could work if the man promises to have a rope tied around his balls that the woman pulls every time she has a contraction... just a thought...

fluffyredrant said...

"Like race in the United States, abortion is the continuing radioactive issue in Irish politics."

Well, he was right on the money with that one.

I left a comment but didn't read any bar yours. Truth be told, the subject matter is so divisive that its impossible not to offend someone somewhere.
JCs plan wasn't very well thought out but no plan is until you right it down and scratch out the silly bits. The fundamental idea of a compromise is a start, which is more than slogans have achieved in 20 years.

Dan Sullivan said...

thrifty, the Indian solution is actual more sensible in that it goes to the real heart of the matter in preventing pregnancies occurring rather than the current approach which is all focused on what to do after the fact.

Abortion isn't the problem, unplanned, unwanted pregnancies are.

Conan Drumm said...

I think he's been watching 'Knocked Up' which is on Sky this week. The pregnancy meets romantic fiction has addled his brain.

nuttycow said...

I read the article and I read the comments. I can't comment about the particular situation he refers to (obviously, since I live in England) but I completely disagree with his thesis. Force the woman to tell the man who got her pregnant? Force her to carry to term.

The whole idea makes me shudder. True, pregnancy is the product of two people but, shouldn't the woman have *slightly* more say than the man?

The Major said...

Thanks for the link, Rosie. I didn't think I would fall for it but I had to comment too.

Rosie said...

for me it's all about the individual cases, Thrifty. i cannot relate to concerns about global population control.

i was appalled, Felix. and surprised to see it coming from him. it will be interesting to see if he engages further with the commenters.

calling it a compromise does not make it one though, Rua.

you left an interesting comment over at JC's, Dan. some of the things you said got my knickers in even more of a knot. i'll get to it later.

i've seen it twice, Conan, and don't seem to have suffered any adverse effects...

shudder indeed, Nutty. it made me want to (a) cry and (b) give him a dig in the goolies. affectionately, like.

ditto, Major, i couldn't not pass comment. and my, what a comment you passed!

problemchildbride said...

Been and seen and commented. Fairly stunned.

fluffyredrant said...

I didn't say it was a compromise, I said he's looking in the right space.

Green Ink said...

An abortive proposal. I really think it's a wind up. My idea of sterilising men is about as workable.

Dan Sullivan said...

greenink, were it technically feasible then sterilising males before puberty and then allow them to procreate only once they've demonstrated some degree of maturity and responsibility and they have someone who says they want to have their children has a lot of merits. One downside though is that as blokes would never need to use any form of contraceptive again disease would spread like wildfire. That and the human race dying out.

JC Skinner said...

I didn't write it to get you angry, Rosie.
But they do say anger is an energy. And I'd like to see energy expended towards solving the abortion issue for good in Ireland.

Rosie said...

it seems not, Green Ink.

Dan, i'm hoping to fuck that your comment is a wind-up. the implication that blokes only use contraception to prevent pregnancy is wildly insulting to male intelligence.

i wouldn't suggest that you did, JC. poking the issue with a stick is all very well and good, but a little more sensitivity and emotional intelligence would not have gone amiss.

so the central tenet of your post is that it is illogical and inequitable for women to force men to become fathers (not to mention force them to assume financial responsibility for those children often WITHOUT any concomitant rights to raise them) while men have absolutely no say in the future of a pregnancy they have had an equal part in creating.

apologies if i failed to address that in my comment - it was not immediately apparent that that was what you were getting at. it's certainly inequitable, but not quite illogical. how do you define a man becoming a father? the existence of a child? the financial support? the emotional involvement? you need to be a lot clearer before anyone can address the issues you've raised with any conviction.

you mention that you think it is fascinating that not one of the female posters has sought to address the core issue both of your modest proposal and of most of the male contributions - are you surprised? it is couched within a piece that is so wildly misogynist and offensive that it would be difficult to give it any credence.

your post read to me more like a final solution than a considered effort towards compromise.

Dan Sullivan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dan Sullivan said...

I don't believe it would be wrong to reckon that a significant portion of men wouldn't use protection if they knew for sure pregnancy wasn't a possibility. Look at how many don't use any now!

misogynist, you've used word in reference to both JC and myself and I have to wonder why. I could hazard all kinds of guesses but that wouldn't be the least bit fair. After all you say something yourself that if it were said about women would be deemed incredibly hateful "how do you define a man becoming a father? the existence of a child? the financial support? the emotional involvement?". So we have to meet some criteria before we can be judged as being fathers?

JC Skinner said...

One major symptom of the problem here is the fact that firstly, you can with an apparently straight face call into question the definition of fatherhood (same as motherhood - you created a child) while simultaneously throwing around all the usual favoured feminist touchwords designed to stifle debate - misogynist, lacking emotional intelligence, etc, etc.
There is NOTHING misogynist about what I wrote. Genuinely nothing. In a context where men are forced to be fathers against their will, to extend that to women is a thought experiment designed to introduce equity to a deeply flawed situation.
If you're offended at the concept of women being forced to become mothers against their will, perhaps you might be able to extend your emotional intelligence to encompass the fact that this exact circumstance is already inflicted upon men?

Rosie said...

you misunderstand me, gents. i'm asking how you as the author of your post define fatherhood, JC.

JC Skinner said...

The same way I define motherhood.

red said...

Oh Mamma, Major told me about this yesterday as I didn't have the chance to look at any blogs. I tried to read JC's post but my vision went blurry and I started shaking. Un-fucking-real.

Neill said...

There is absolutely no reason to be bandying about the term misogyny here even if both sides seem to be emphasizing a gender divide here. I see no evidence of hatred of women or men, just an inability to debate the points they raise rather than the gender they are made by.

I think most pro-choice arguments are flawed in terming the decision to be solely about a woman's body when tehre is another life involved. This is an arbitrary individual decision as to where life begins. For example, no-one would advocate the abortion of an 8 month old foetus (I think), but many would not have a problem with the morning after pill. This introduces a sliding scale of what individuals will believe is a life and this is valid. So for many people it is not just a choice about a woman's body but a choice about two bodies. This is again, a valid position and should not attract so much vitriol.

That said, people who believe it is a life from conception or 1 week or 2 weeks post-conception etc. should also understand that to somoene else, aborting this is not murder.

A fundamental and possibly deliberate misunderstanding of the original post is that "forcing" a woman to have a child means locking them up in a straightjacket until they give birth. I suspect the original poster meant keeping the current state of not providing legal abortions, but only if the father objects. I say deliberate misunderstanding of this as a deliberate misunderstanding feeds into an anger which can be used to dismiss the constructive parts of the original post.

There is a natural imbalance in that, through evolution, women take more of a risk in sex. This is not a position enforced by "the patriarchy" and this point should be dropped. I firmly believe that if pregnancy affected men as well, tehre would be the same level of debate about this.

alan said...

It's a tough one, because I think I can clearly understand and empathise with elements of both sides of the story.

But at the end of it all, for me, forcing someone to carry an unborn child to birth against their will, despite possible best intentions of a loving family/parent at the end, is wrong.

This does differ from a woman choosing not to terminate her pregnancy in order to put the child up for adoption. This is (usually) an active choice on the part of the mother, and not an enforcement.

The issue of men wishing to become a parent following an unplanned pregnancy is not one that can be morally resolved using this method.

All in my unsolicted opinion.

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